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Thread: Alignment Settings

  1. #1
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    Alignment Settings

    Here is some info on alignment specs for future reference:

    This comes from original manuals written on the mini:


    STOCK MINI:
    Camber (front) 1 to 3 degrees positive
    Camber (rear) 1 degree positive
    Castor (front) 3 degrees
    King-pin Inclination (front) 9.5 degrees
    Toe (front) 1/16 in (1.6 mm) out
    Toe (rear) 1/8 in (3.18 mm) in


    ERA TURBO MINI: Fitted with 6 X 13 inch rims (stock) and 94 bhp (1275 a series with turbo)
    Camber (Front) 1.5 degrees negative
    Camber (Rear) 1.0 degrees positive
    Castor (Front) 3 degrees
    Kin Pin Inclination (Front) 9.5 degrees
    TOE (Front) 3/16 to (4.7 to 6.3) OUT
    TOE (Rear) 1/8 (3.18 mm ) IN

    Note: the increased "Toe out" on the front, is reported to have been introduced by Rover/(British Leyland) to counteract the torque steer.


    Alignment settings used on my B16Vtec running 13's (mostly street work/little track time)

    Front: 1.4 to 1.5 negative
    Rear: 0.4 to 0.5 negative
    CASTOR
    FRONT : 4.0 to 4.5
    TOE SETTINGS:
    FRONT: 2 mm (TOE OUT) per wheel
    REAR: 3 mm 1/16 (TOE IN) per wheel .

    Feel free to add yours and maybe we can all come to some consensus of what works and what doesn't !

  2. #2
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    A widow maker no more! I had the shop set the car up for "no tire wear" as a base line... After that I can write down how much I tweak it for better performance and always go back to 0,0 so to speak. I will say the car drove hands off on the freeway nice and straight but it did pull a bit to the left on a FLAT road under heavy throttle. I assume that's due to the micro amount of camber (+-not sure) the tech put in on the right side due to most roads having a crown. More driving will tell, today is a rainy day in the Seattle area (go figure). I just looked on the paperwork and he didn't print out the numbers But from what I can remember, caster was around .75, camber was 1 neg., toe 1/8 in total.
    You all seem to have some different numbers. What up? I'll admit, this guy didn't know minis... I assume your cars are set up for twisty tracks.
    Please advise!
    I will call the guy in the morning to chat about numbers. I was just so excited he was able to get it done, I didn't compare numbers! Doh!!!
    Last edited by Todd; 01-24-2013 at 06:33 AM.

  3. #3
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    Todd,
    Your castor value looks like it is in radians. 0.075 radians converts to 4.5 degrees.
    It would really be nice to see all your other settings.

  4. #4
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    I called the shop and they had the measurements in the machine, all numbers are degrees except noted and 10 inch rims.

    L Caster: 4.1
    R Caster: 6.4 (more by design to counter act the crown in most roadways. I may reduce it if the car pulls on acceleration)
    L Camber: -.7
    R Camber: -.5
    Toe in 1/16 inch per side for 1/8 total
    Didn't mess with the rear.

    I was only able to drive it a bit on the way home in the rain, but it was very stable. Again, I wanted the car set up for zero tire wear as a starting point, I'll tweak it as I get to drive it more.
    -Todd
    Last edited by Todd; 01-24-2013 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #5
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    Todd,
    I see you are running TOE IN on the front. FWD cars are meant to have TOE OUT

  6. #6
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    I wondered about that... but again, this is a base line that I can change. I already changed the toe angle by a few cranks to see how that effects things next time I drive. At least toe is easy to measure.

  7. #7
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    Yes, toe in, in the front is not good, and will exagerate torque steer. with the greatly increased power you need even more toe-out than stock.
    Castor should be fairly equal on both front wheels or the car will pull one way under acceleration and the opposite on decel.
    Steve, I think there is something wrong with the castor/kingpin angles you listed for stock Minis. Unless Euro definitions of "King pin" are different from ours. It is my understanding that King Pin inclination is the same as a line drawn through the upper and lower ball joint centers, with the angle being formed by that center line and a vertical line, in side view. in other words, the same definition as "caster angle". I never heard of anyone running over 9 degrees of caster, except on a Dragster.
    Last edited by steve; 01-25-2013 at 12:23 AM.

  8. #8
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    King pin inclination angle is measured from the front of the wheel and the vertical, Castor is measured from the side.

    If we could post a picture it would be easier to see. however here is a link

    http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...Q9QEwBg&dur=63
    Last edited by 250ptm; 01-25-2013 at 08:30 AM.

  9. #9
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    Ok, I stand corrected, however, the KI angle is set by the upright/hub design and is not adjustable relative to camber angle; so that the difference between the camber angle and KI angle will always be constant, or any camber adjustment will affect KI angle equally. What that means to us is, there is no point in listing KI angle specs for tuners/alignment technicians, outside of using it to calculate scrub radius, when selecting wheel offsets and tire diameters.

  10. #10
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    Correct. I also presume its was only included as a reference. It would ensure that any camber deficiencies could be verified by having the KPI checked for out of tolerance, since the original mini has fixed top and bottom arms,whereas ours (in general) have adjustable bottom arms.

  11. #11
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    Don't see how the KI could ever change, even with sloppy OEM machining tollerances....bad ball joints maybe, but that would be obvious upon inspection.
    Another thing I was pondering, was the intentional positive camber....the only reason I could come up with, for that, is a backhanded way to decrease scrub radius, reducing steering effort, or maybe to reduce neg camber, due to castor angle when cornering, to improve tire wear for "granny cornering" mode, or both.

  12. #12
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    I was originally theorizing that if the car was in an accident and suffered damage to the hub itself the KPI values would be of some use, other than that, I think the KPI angles are simply a design reference value for the hub. The ERA turbo has the same KPI as a “normal mini, yet runs with 1.5 negative. It also uses the same hubs as the original mini. If KPI was a dynamic value it would (as you pointed out) be affected by camber, however if this was true, the KPI values quoted for the ERA would not be the same as the original mini.
    There is another slim possibility and that is fitting Rover metro hubs to a mini. To all intents the metro hubs look identical yet run 10.38 degrees KPI.
    Im the first to admit that I’m no suspension engineer so I really can’t comment on your musings. Lets face it, the original car was designed in the late 50’s.. without the use of computer modelling. Even with that being said, it still set the bar for handling with the stock settings. The ERA on the other hand, was set up using computer modelling and worked well with the settings given above.
    Last edited by 250ptm; 01-27-2013 at 09:07 AM.

  13. #13
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    Since this is the place for suspension pondering, I have a cunning plan., which would need your machining skill to eliminate bump steer. Im taking this data from the Era turbo. It has 10mm spacers fitted under the steering arms which changes the angle of the rack arms. Apparently this mod eliminates the inherent bump steer in a mini which I think is being confused in a lot of cases with torque steer. The only problem with making this work is the strength of the bolts used to secure the spacers, apparently the original ones were certified by BL for safety margins and I cannot for the life of me find any specs. Interested?

  14. #14
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    I am a little foggy on the bump steer issue regarding Minis. I have not noticed any myself, but admitedly have not removed the cone springs and cycled the steering and suspension through it's travel range, to check for bump steer. One day I hope to do so. I do know that since my car has been lowered past the norm for typical street cars(3.5" ground clearance), that I now experience excessive camber gain, so when the car rolls during cornering, the static camber setting I am using (2 to 2.5 degrees), plus the camber gain gets really big negative angles; why I am reducing my static camber settings. Bob Bauchemin's very successful race Mini runs zero camber in front. BTW, I bought a pair of his lower ball joint extenders to try out, but discovered I can not use them on my KAD alloy hubs, since they were designed to use the Metro ball joints. I paid $140 plus shipping for them, and would like to recover some of that, if anyone would like to try them......

  15. #15
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    In the last episode our hero had a mini set with 1/8 inch toe in and yes it drove like crap. Better than before but still crap.
    I just got done adjusting 1/8 inch (total) toe out and took a test drive. Wow what a difference! It still wanders a bit under full throttle in second gear on a wet street but only if the wheels are spinning. Speaking of wheel spin, I need to learn how to drive this beast and the art of rolling onto the gas.
    I think I'll go another 1/16 inch total toe out and find out if that helps. I assume the extra needed amount is due to my "soft" hydro suspension.... not sure. I will say I have been playing with the needle valves on the hydro system and I'm happy they are in there!

  16. #16
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    Todd,
    Glad to hear its all beginning to go properly. You should be OK up to the toe out figures for the ERA I posted.

    Like you currently I cant nail it in 2nd without spinning the wheels (even in the dry), although Ive yet to find out what its like with the new 3.6 FD.

    Are you running with an LSD ? and what is the FD ratio ?

  17. #17
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    Helical geared LSD, I forget the ratio for the FD but it's an LS tranny. I did the numbers and with my 10" wheels the top of second gear should be 57.5 mph 8500 rpm, 4000 rpm in 5th = 72.5 mph.

  18. #18
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    Wow,. I didn't think the top of 2nd would be that fast, even with the LS 5th and final drive. (.714 & 4.26 if I recall). So the Autocrosses at the old air base here are also faster than I thought; sometimes need to get into 3rd gear, and I have the 3.60 Final drive too; that means we are probably hitting 65 MPH +. There are some cars out there, that are typically 20% faster than me, so they must be hitting close to 80! SCCA is not supposed to lay out Autocross courses that exceed 60 mph for insurance reasons....looks like a little fudging goin' on.
    The more toe out you can stand, the better the straight line stability....the only thing limiting how much, is tire wear.
    Your 5th gear calculated speed sounds spot-on.
    Last edited by steve; 01-30-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  19. #19
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    Yup, I plan on increasing toe out little by little just to the point it's steady under a heavy right foot.

  20. #20
    hello people, im Sergio from south spain and i bought a mini with b16a2 swap on it. My babe comes with watson subframe and its made it in a 1999 sportpack. when i drive soft runs straight but when i give her gas goes to the right by her self. Please help me to enjoy my dreams car!!!!! i carried to the mecanic for Alignment but i dont have it and i think the specs mini are not the same anymore, thanx a lot, sorry by my english!

  21. #21
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    If it's pulling then the alignment is out
    Try a lot of caster and toe it out, to fight the torque steer, u may have to try a few different setting, drive the car and see how it feels

    16v alignment specs aren't the same as the underpowered A lump cars

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