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Thread: S80 LSD Final Drive Replacement

  1. #1
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    S80 LSD Final Drive Replacement

    I am finally getting around to replacing the FD in my tranny. (One bought some time ago from Steves group buy). I have got a good idea of how to replace it physically from info on various web sites so no real problem there, however, what i would really like to have before I rip it all apart is the service manual that shows the various tolerances in the the transmission when re-assembling it. Can anyone point me to a link?

  2. #2
    PM me your email .I think I have something that will help
    got it from honda-tech forum

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    Thanks , have sent you a PM. let me know if you did not get it !

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    I have a hard copy that I downloaded a few years ago from one of the Honda boards. If AA can't get you a link, let me know and I will try to find the one I used.

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    Unfortunately the Link sent from AA_driver is broken/doesn't work anymore.
    *
    Steve, can you find yours, or sent the original file to me at my home E.mail ??

    thanks

  6. #6
    try again worked fine for me
    http://www.hondahookup.com/manuals/

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    AA_ Driver thanks finally got it to work....was having a problem registering on the site.
    Downloaded the acura integra 2001 manual, Im assuming this is the correct one to use, or should I try another one ??

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    I think mine (for the B series trans) is for the 94 Integra GSR or LS. 2001 would probably be the K series trans.

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    Thanks Steve. downloaded the 94 Integra manual.

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    Steve, I ve got a little problem.
    Transmission is removed and stripped and (unlucky for me) I have discovered that my FD is a 4.40 ratio "14 bolt" LSD. This means the new 3.6 FD wont fit as it is a 10 bolt pattern. Is there a 14 bolt ring gear available or any suggestions as to options. Personally I like the way the current LSD works on my car, just need a longer gearing. Im keeping my fingers crossed there is a workable solution.

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    just saw this post; already answered in your duplicate PM. You may post my two replies here for others to see. I don't have them in my archives.

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    Originally posted by Steve in response to a PM from 250ptm

    Oh no! I ran into the same issue when I got my first motor/trans. the 14 bolt is a Viscous drive, and only offered in the JD market. there is just the one OEM ring ratio and nothing offered in after market either. I have two of these "White -Elephant" diffs on the shelf, and have tried getting gears for them in the US. There may be something available in Japan if you have a contact there.
    Your best bet is getting an aftermarket 109mm LSD, possibly used. I got a new Mfactory unit for about 550$ for my first tranny, but didn't like the way it felt....seemed to get twitchy all of a sudden, after initial 200 miles; It may have got broken or damaged by my ham-foot driving. there are other Torsen types like OBX (bad rep), and Quaife (the best rep). The OEM Torsen diffs are all 117 MM, and I don't have any more gears that size in stock. Then there are the plate/clutch type after market diffs, like Cusco and others, which I have little knowledge of. The 117mm OEM LSDs are all 4.40 or 4.7, which, again, I don't have the tall gears for. You might want to stay with the 14 bolt setup, and use the LS 5th gear if you don't do a lot of freeway driving. You could probably sell the 3.6 set; I could help by putting the word out to our customers. Hope this helps.
    Cheers

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    Originally Posted by Steve in response to a PM from 250ptm

    One more option is to go with the B-16 or LS (109mm) open diff, which will take the 3.6 gears.

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    Steve
    Thanks for your commiserations, I was disappointed too. I even went to the extent of mailing houseman to see if he can make one, although he has not responded yet (ces't la weekend and all).

    Although there may be light at the end of the tunnel. After re-reading your mail, I re- measured the 3.6 I have, and it has a 117 mm inner diameter.

    The bolt PCD comes out to approx 138mm.

    So am i right in thinking an OEM lsd diff will work, and if so which one would be the best to look for.
    Thanks
    SteveM
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-10-2013 at 07:59 PM.

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    Originally posted by Steve in response to a PM from 250ptm.

    I think you are in better shape than you thought. The 117mm OEM LSDs will work; these are found on all Type-R power trans....... B18C(JDM), B18C1, B18C5, and B16B (Integra and Civic Type-R and 94+ Integra GSR with the LSD option if I am not mistaken. There are other B18Cs (2 through 4 designations)in Europe that may also carry this option.

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    Ok I checked some part numbers.

    Acura Part number quoted to me: 41100-P80-000 for an OEM INTEGRA 94+ GSR. Unfortunately, The parts guy didnt know if it was a LSD.

    Since found that the OEM Type R helical LSD is part # 41200-P80-003 (Helical LSD).

    I assume that the P80-000 is an open diff since the difference quoted to me from the dealer as $660 for the P80-000 and $1300 for the Type R.

    These prices were straight form Acura Canada, so I assume that they can be probably had for a little less on some web sites.

    Mfactory diff case is P/N LSD-B18 and runs $600 (helical LSD)

    Quaife diff offers two numbers: QDF9U for the new civic type R, and QDF6U for the 94 2000 integra. Both are around $850. (helical lsd)
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-11-2013 at 04:14 PM. Reason: new info added

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    yes, these can be found for as low as 300 up a max of 800 for used units on line. typically 4-500$

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    Steve.
    Maybe im searching in the wrong places but i have not found any for sale yet ! any suggestions are welcome

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    Another couple of questions.

    As I have a 14 bolt diff, if I change it to a 10 bolt type, will the present gear drive on the 14 bolt diff for the VSS sensor, fit the 10 bolt diff case ?

    If this gear is not interchangeable does it also mean that the gear on the end of the VSS sensor has to be changed as well".
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-12-2013 at 11:11 AM.

  20. #20
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    My tranny guy told me all VSS gears are the same for B series trannys. Also, if you change the FD, you will need to swap out the little gear on the main shaft that drives it, but I'm sure you knew that

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    I ran into no issues with the speedo drive, when swapping diff types. Try the HondaTech forums; there are several locationson thatsite where you can post for leads, plus the classifieds. Then there is Ebay, Craigs, etc. hit the 16 valve mini site too. Also local tuner shops that do the Honda swaps and Dyno work. Consider buying a complete ITR/CTR tranny and swapping out the diff with yours, and re sell the tranny accordingly. California has a big Honda scene, so I will keep my eyes open.
    PS, be aware that there may be some shimming required if swapping diff carrier bearings; there are two types used; Ball and Timkin roller types. The manual will specify the proceedure for shimming the tapered Timkin Type.
    Last edited by steve; 02-12-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Guys, I appreciate the info, if you can find one for me I'll willingly pay any shipping.

    Todd: Just for clarification, the vss is driven from a gear mounted on the diff case, what gear on the mainshaft are you referring to? or are you speaking of the countershaft pinion in which case I already have one!

    steve
    gotcha on the bearings thanks for the heads up!
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-12-2013 at 05:22 PM. Reason: responding to comments without adding more stuff

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    Oh, counter shaft pinion. I didn't want to presume what you know and what you don't! Info is always good...
    Will you make it to Bend in June?

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    now there's a high probability especially with a 3.6 installed. lol by the way didnt mean to sound harsh its just the way I write!
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-12-2013 at 06:37 PM.

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    steve,
    I have noticed that the countershaft on my trans appears to be different from the custom made one. It looks like there is a shim washer between the pinion and the bottom of the 1st gear. Whereas the custom countershaft has a definite ridge machined in that same area. Do you know what transmission the new countershaft was modelled afer, Im beginning to suspect there is a difference between JDM and USDM types.

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    I am not sure what you mean, I don't think there is any difference in USDM and JDM. except for the '98+ spec ITR (B18C) only, which requires it's own first gear with the countershaft I believe. I would ask on the Honda tech board in the transmission topic section, or call one of the aftermarket diff suppliers, like Mfactory. I installed the 3.6 set in my year 2000 CTR, (B16B) trans with no probs.
    Last edited by steve; 02-14-2013 at 12:03 PM.

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    In addition you could call the "Speed Factory" in here in Wa, they deal exclusively with Hondas, ask for James for tranny service (or racing tips, he pulls a 8.08 @ 190mph in the 1/4 mile in his civic).

    http://www.speedfactoryracing.net/

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    thanks for the info, I will be working on the tranny this weekend so will (hopefully) know more the next time I post.

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    i have disassembled the countershaft. and its the same as the new one, so the original is not a 98+ spec ITR (B18C) type. which is good news for me. Need to fit a new thrust washer under 1st gear as tolerances are 0.004 over the wear limits, other than that everything else is spot on.

    Now to find a diff !.....if it all goes pear shaped, I might go with a Quaife, do you know if is it better than the OEM helical?

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    Quaife is a large OE supplier for many makes. I am guessing that their quality is at least as good as the OE Honda diff. Check their site and you will see their amazing line of performance gear box and diff listings.

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    Some more thoughts...After-Market Diffs, that are developed for the performance market, may tend to be biased toward a more positive or agressive lock-up. With Helical gear types,(Torsens), that is sometimes accomplished with higher Helix angles on the differential gear teeth. Whether that would be "good" in your/our application is a good question. I found the OEM diff seemed to be more driveable for my purposes, than the Mfactory Torsen unit that I had before. You could probably research Helix angle differences, or maybe comparative torque biasing, between manufacturers.

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    I was thinking along the same lines too. I researched MFactory: and found it was stated by some rep (for M Factory) that this diff has an aggressive helix angle, more so even than the Quaife. Comments I read about the Quaife from the honda guys, (or the mini guys on 16V) all seem to be positive about the smooth transition of TQ and that it is not agressive when it is transferring TQ. Also according the the blurb on the Quaife site, the wheels will not lock up with this diff. the bias tq is applied progressively.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not knocking the OEM helical, it was designed for the general population so its likely to be less aggressive, which is probably a good thing in a mini.

    The others like Wavetrack and OBX are also being used on the mini, however there seem to be less users around (than the Mfactory or Quaife), so there are fewer comments to get any real conclusion on them. As for KAAZ it is a clutch type diff and can be set up for friction biasing depending what the driver wants, its quite an expensive piece of kit, probably good for the drifting crowd or a full on FWD race car. Right now my money is probably going on a Quaife, the more I read about this diff the more I like it and if I get it Ill find out for myself this spring.
    Last edited by 250ptm; 02-18-2013 at 12:38 PM.

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    The local market for an OEM diff was not good, everyone wanted to sell me the entire box, and this would leave me with an unknown quantity, in that I would not know if I bought a lemon until it was stripped or even worse installed in the car. Since I do know all the gears and syncros in mine were working properly, the best solution for me was to just replace the diff with a new one, so I bit the bullet and ordered a new Quaife diff a few days ago. I must say I’m impressed at the fit and finish, and it is lighter than the original viscous by about 6 lbs. it also comes with a “lifetime warranty”.

    Right now, the transmission is completely re-assembled. The original taper roller bearings on the diff have been replaced with the latest roller type bearings. All clearances have been checked as per the service manual and are “spot on”.

    By the way, if you ever think about having a new FD and countershaft made for the 14 bolt viscous diffs, Houseman quoted me $1900 for a one off unit. Maybe he could come down on price if there were a batch made but I’m not really sure.

    I did find an anomaly with the new diff shims for the roller bearings which may be of interest.

    The service manual quotes the shims for the diff as varying thickness in steps of 0.002 inches. I found that they varied in size from the posted dimensions in the MM. My micrometer readings on some came out as 0.002 inches oversize, another at 0.0015 under and another at the nominal value. At that point I figured that these ground shims have a tolerance which is not quoted in the Manual of +/- 0.002 inches. Since the diff tolerances are 0.000 to 0.004 inches, it means that even with the correct part number selected it may not give the correct clearances as it is dependent on the actual finished size.
    So selecting a correct shim turns out to be pretty much a turkey shoot. It took me 4 shims to find one that gave the least clearance without pre-loading the bearing. At $12.00 a pop you want to have a lot of patience or cash.
    Bottom line…. measure the shim at the dealer before taking it home!
    Last edited by 250ptm; 03-02-2013 at 12:42 PM. Reason: usual grammar errors

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    great info Steve, thanks for that. I don't remember having any problems with excessive shim thickness tolerances.

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    Finished the new FD and LSD install today, and fortunately for me, this is the day when snow tires are no longer a legal requirement in this province. Even though we still have a lot of snow around I took a short run to check out my handiwork.
    Just loving the new Quaife diff, its no more aggressive than the old viscous I had. The new FD gears whine mostly on decel , although I already knew this would be the case. It does give the car a sound similar to a mini box with straight cuts and this is something I can easily live with anyway. Cruising in 5th at 3400 gives 71 mph. and it still pulls like a train from this speed even without a downshift.

    I know it’s a bit off topic, but I remembered to check the IACV to see if it can handle low temps since I have disconnected all the water supply to this valve. . It was 28F here today, and the engine idle adjusted from an intial 1200 at start up, to at 750 with no problems at all. Valve was warm to touch on the bulkhead heated by the ambient in the engine bay.

    Steve
    I measured my layshaft overall length to be 15 15/16th (end to end)
    Last edited by 250ptm; 03-17-2013 at 01:07 PM. Reason: just remembered something

  36. #36
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    Sounds great. I don't even notice the FD whine any more. I suspect that the IACV will work fine without a water supply, once the under-hood temps warm up; the only time there might be a problem is during the first few minutes of operation when cold, and a lot of air is passing through it, which could freeze up the valve for a short time.
    I forgot which intermediate shaft you were using, is it the double male splined integra one? In that case I assume the spline-end to spline-end length is what you are refering to? can you get a length out to the end of the CV joint lip, so I can compare it to the male splined CVs position? Also the CV cup body length (outer lip to outside-back of cup) since there are at least two lengths available. I am thinking that your setup may be about a quarter inch shorter than mine and would like to verify that it is not so short, that the axle might fall out or jam at extreme bump or rebound. If your setup is working I will add that shaft to the verified options for the build data. A part number or make/model/year vehicle would also help.
    Thanks Steve

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    Steve,
    Here is the info you asked:

    1. Correct the intermediate is splined at both ends. I don’t know if its from an integra or not since it came with the engine from a JDM company.

    2. Length out to the end of the CV joint lip: Difficult to do: Best I could manage was a measurement from the end of the inner CV to the bead on the axle where the outer cv boot fits. Approx. 5.7 inches.

    3. CV cup body length : 3.6 inches.

    4. The axle might fall out or jam at extreme bump or rebound:
    I do not think it will fall out. I have had the car running through all the gears with the suspension at full droop, (top arm bottomed out on the rebound stop). Also if my (intermediate shaft) is shorter in length, it would likely tend to move the tripod further out of the CV, so there would likely be less chance of it bottoming on suspension compression too. Maybe your measurements can confirm this!

    5. Part number or make/model/year vehicle: Sorry there is no visible P/N, and I really do not know which car it came from as it all JDM.
    Last edited by 250ptm; 03-21-2013 at 06:47 PM.

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